British Isles C'Ship/International Series

[Bryan]

An argument well put, Chris. I know that the Inter Association teams and the Irish team is mainly made up out of skips, who are generally recognised as our "best" players. I have been reliably informed that most of the other countries have mainly skips on their teams too... BUT

I think we are missing out on an absolute basic here. A LEAD is a SPECIALIST position... and a VERY important player on the rink. I have had limited experience of skipping myself, but HAVE played with world class skips - Sammy Allen and Neil Booth to name but two! One of the things that I have picked up from both these players, and watching other skips operate... is the importance of a LEAD being able to place the mat, deliver a jack to within centimetres of where the skip stands, and then throw two bowls CLOSE to the jack. If the opposition rink have been dominating a certain length, one of the big advantages your own skip has (with a good lead!!) is to be able to change the length and/or position of the jack and try to dominate THAT length yourself. I'm sorry, but someone who spends all their time SKIPPING is NOT capable of being able to do that- or let me rephrase that.. VERY FEW are able to achieve that skill. Therefore IN MY OPINION the first 6 names in an International team sheet (5 for the Inter Association) are the LEADS.... THEN you put your other "best" players into the remaining positions of second, third and skip. Again, I have played bowls long enough at a decent standard in PGL SEnior 1 to KNOW that no matter how good yopur skip (or third!) is... IF YOUR FRONT END ARE NOT IN.... YOU ARE IN TROUBLE! THat's why I consider it IMPERATIVE that there is a dedicated LEAD in each rink..... a dedicated and skilful lead is no less important than all these wonderful skips we have!

To say we haven't got SIX dedicated and skiful leads IN THE WHOLE OF IRELAND is plain silly.. and also disrespectful to many bowlers who play that dedicated position to a very high standard week in, week out. Is a Stephen Shields, Paul Daly or Mark McPeak (to name but 3 LEADS who have served Ireland well!) any less important a player than all the skips who fill the other places? I respectfully think not!!!

Anyway.. that's MY thoughts... obviously NOT those of selectors... and in that matter we are going to have to agree to disagree, but I really think the PGL AND IRELAND are missing out on a trick by NOT picking LEADS for LEAD positions.... I don't care what OTHERS do.... why can't WE do the "right thing" and lead the way (excuse the terrible pun!) for a change!!

I really would like to hear what other TRUTHFULLY think about this debate.... LEADS and the rest.... or SKIPS, SKIPS, SKIPS!!??

[teatime]

Chris in many cases you are right when you say new bowlers who show some promise in smaller clubs are rushed to play back end bowls by those clubs mostly through necessity or in fear of losing them to bigger clubs. We have in our club bowlers who have been asked to play back end but refuse because they are very good at what they do in the front of the rink. These guys are dedicated to play front end because it gives them great satisfaction building heads they even keep stats of how many ends they win in a game and can tell you how many shots they drew in that particular game to say there are no dedicated front end bowlers may be true in many cases is not precise in all cases. The problem is no selectors visit these smaller clubs during the bowling season and don't make enquiries to that particular club. You can believe that or not but that is the cold facts of the situation, selectors must make some kind of effort to be make themselves more amenable to all clubs rather to the top 4 or 5 clubs , as it seems at present. Not every bowler wants to leave their own club were they have good friends and were they are loyal to that club to join one of the top 4 or 5 clubs to enhance their chances of being picked to play for an association team, that can't be right , if they have to do that then that's wrong. The alternative is selectors must be more visible to all clubs in our association.

[thegovner]

I reality doc this will never happen !
But if it did firstly the selectors would need to dedicate a number off men to scout each club each week over each and every season and pick and trial these players on current form "not just because their name looks good on the sheet"
As we all know everyones not perfect and form players will give anyone a game in any sport no just bowls !
Secondly giving these guys that never get a chance might just uncover something special weather it be a 30 year bowling veteran or a young lad with the desire to learn improve and win let's face it can't be any worse than the team off super skips that automatically get selected every time

[wookiewook]

Some interesting views coming in at present. At a glance the current PGL selectors and to a slightly lesser degree Irish selectors seem to be picking their own players, giving the impression that if you want to play representative bowls you must join one of our clubs. In reality the best three teams in the PGL by some way are Belmont, Dunbarton and Ballymena with the latter two dominating the league for many years between them. Therefore they must have better players than the other teams who occasionally cause an upset but lack the consistency to challenge for the title each year. Having played Senior One bowls for many years I have played against every team and every regular club skip, and everyone has good and bad days. The best ones are generally the most consistent as everyone has the same range of shots - in bowls there arent that many options. How many teams dont play their most consistant players at skip? How many good games in a season is considered consistant? How many good bowls constitutes a good game? Most bowlers tend to see their team-mates bad shots and remember their own good ones giving themselves an unrealistic opinion on their own performance. Personnel wise I dont think either PGL or International team could be improved dramatically but maybe the positions or combinations could be tinkered with. Im baffled with the one change Ireland made for the final game of the series but Im sure there was some good reason for it. I look forward to your POV this week Bryan.

[boydie]

Very good discussion and a lot of relevant points raised..
The last specialist 2nd I can remember playing for Ireland was Davy Gardner..probably 20 years ago
I agree with Bryan as regards the leads..pick the specialists..then mould the team.
The unfortunate thing about the association games is, they come too early in the season for players to
be picked on current form therfore the selectors are mainly going on last season or reputation.
What Chris has said regarding young talented players is right, if they play for a lower league or
"unfashionable" club, they are put at the back end as these clubs need their best players in that
position..
My first season playing bowls,at Gallagher, I played back end, it wasn't until I moved to Cliftonville
that I started to "learn my trade"..I lead for Sammy allen, Jim Baker,Marcus and Jim Craig..Apretty good
introduction I think.
Finally, regarding selectors having people watched..I made the offer directly to the then chairman of PGL
selectors, to go and look at any possible upcomming talent and give my feedback..5 years later, still
awaiting the call.
That says it all about the PGL..

[teatime]

How boydie , that shows the stupidity of the PGL , I've never met you but through conversations I have had with guys that do know you , I'm baffled why the PGL didn't take your offer up , again as I say that's just shows their stupidity not to replying to you . Just daft.

[jaykay]

Having played in all positions for a top pgl team, I played lead for first time the other night. Apart from skipping, I felt an increased pressure never experienced before when playing middle order. in most cases concentration was higher as u are trying to remember weight and lines, as u are constantly drawing to the jack. So I see the point of picking bowlers with experience in this role. Ps. I played a blinder that night!!

[sammya]

Jeez Jason Santa would be proud of you, the blowing your own trumpet at the end was a bit much tho

[santa2012]

Well said Killer:-) :-) Not easy to place the mat and judge the weight of the jack to throw it regularly to a certain length!!!!!
Don't 4get u have had some of the best leads in the country leading for you when u played back end:-)
And Sammy, we had a nice few wee comps together.

[wic]

I have been reading this with interest and have to say I disagree that those selected in the lead positions for Ireland are not more than capable of fulfilling their role simply because they don't do it every week. Simon Martin is one of the best leads you'd ever play against. Many years ago when I was coming through I was told by the selectors that I should concentrate on leading even if it meant that I move to a club where I could lead. When learning this game we all learn the basics first. Drawing to the jack at any length on either hand these or the basics of the sport. Hours of practice throwing jacks to specific lenghts and drawing to them, all of those selected have done this and progressed through their respective teams and different positions. Have they got all the shot skills required to be able to do this still, of course they have. Maybe if the team was selected or a panel at the end of the year when those in form players could bed themselves into positions and practice sessions were arranged and couched and scored. This has worked for other countries maybe it's worth a try. Throw a load of the specialist leads in and see how they perform at this level. Some may step up others may not. What's the worst that can happen?

[santa2012]

Simon may b one of the best leads you have played against but it must have been a while ago!!
Leads who regularly throw jacks to where the skip asks them is an art form and judging by some of those at Leamington they must have forgotten what they were taught about drawing:-)
It has been discussed about having trials at end of season and have not heard a good argument against it.

[djs]

Has/Does the PGL run representative matches between the 5 leagues ie each league selects 4 rinks of the players deemed to have been the best/standout over the season? This would allow selectors to see some of the hidden gems of the lower leagues

[santa2012]

NO:-)

[djs]

Has it never been looked into Santa? - To your knowledge

[santa2012]

NO:-)